Mail armour, from 'Wu Bei Zhi (《武備志》)'. |
Although known to the Chinese by Tang Dynasty at the latest (most likely earlier), mail armour never saw widespread use in China. Even during Ming and Qing period, in which mail armour was relatively common, period sources always speak of mail armour as something foreign and exotic, originated from ancient Qiang people (羌族).
A mail shirt alleged to be dated to Ming period. Beijing Police Museum. |
Chinese mail-and-plate armour
There are currently no known records of mail-and-plate armour in Ming period texts, nor does any Chinese mail-and-plate armour survived to the present day. Nevertheless, Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty contains a record about the dismissal of a Korean official for failing his duty to supervise the production of "Chinese mail-and-plate armour" in Korea in the early 15th century. This heavily hints that mail-and-plate armour was in use in China at least until that point in time.
Hi. Did all Chinese mail armor utilize the 4 in 1 pattern?
ReplyDeleteAlso, were the rings riveted, butted, or twisted similar to keychain rings as in the case of Japanese mail?
Yes, surviving mail suits all appear to be 4-in-1 riveted.
DeleteDo you know if they were riveted or butted?
DeleteRiveted obviously.
DeleteWhat's with that lamellar groin protector?
ReplyDeleteWhy it is not maile?
Anything unusual about lamellar groin protector?
DeleteBecause it is mail armor
DeleteIf you going to use plate anyway then why bother to use mail
DeleteLike the Gyeongbeongap, you want some hard plates to supplement the mail?
DeleteThat is a plated mail different story
DeleteBeside if you wanna adittional protections than why just groin?
No, it's the same story - hard plates to supplement flexible armour - just achieved through different method. And what's wrong with paying extra attention to groin?
DeleteBecause if you going to paying attention than you can do same thing in most if vital part
DeleteAnd beside plated mail and lamellar + mail is different
You fail to understand my reasoning - a mail armour is just fine on its own, any extra bits are just "bonus" armours to reinforce vital body parts, thus subject to user habit/preference/tactic/convenience.
DeleteUnless you are upgrading the entire suit to full plate armour or something, there will always be some vital parts that you either can't or don't bother to reinforce.
Why groin and not other vitals? Because they liked it that way. It's like asking why some samurai wore mask into battle while others didn't, or why knights sometimes fought with their visors raised: They liked it that way.
As for plated mail vs lamellar and mail, the construction method is certainly very different, but the idea behind it is similar: add something rigid to the flexible mail armour.
You just dont understand
DeleteI dont criticise adding extra protection on mail armor because plate give superior (some people might disagree but) protection over typical mail shirt I well aware of this method and it has been done by many countries in many time
We can observe that many warrior in middle eastern culture have wear lamellar coat over mail shirt,Thing is both armor is independent stand alone armor unlike this mail armor and
Same with plated mail which is complete one single armor
However this perculiar model is include lamellar part even though it is clear refered as mail armor in treatie like both mail and lameller part is one set pieces moreover this lamellar part only protect groin nevertheless they could go further than this somehow they just stop there it is very interesting concept
In Wu Bei Zhi they describe armor by part by part (ex body armor ,shoulder armor ,breast plate) in that context i can see this is happens to be just extra lamellar proctector mail shirt however at least judging by picture it is one set
Ah, I get you now. That said, that thing seems like a it's worn over mail armour, not part of the same set.
DeleteDo we have actual example of mail skirt in ming period?
ReplyDeleteIve seen some recreation (mostly just internet drawing and some action figure) that very similar to qing period mail shirt and skirt
However i cant be sure whethere it is acurate or not
There's supposedly one in the Palace Museum, but the photo of the mail skirt has not surfaced.
DeleteDid ever ming dynasty use mail stocking?
ReplyDeleteOr mail part that covering foot?
No as far as I am aware. They used lamellar or segmented sabatons.
Deletehttps://i.pinimg.com/236x/24/14/44/241444f4472ddb6a3196cd656914c796--chinese-armor-chinese-design.jpg
Deletehttp://guancha.gmw.cn/2003-10/031021/mingchao.jpg
https://cdn.namuwikiusercontent.com/s/1399fa8ed154428d47a820119b5ea3558bb89ec82b300a400f583259f37ecfa75c2383843e5f0fc3d9c2c2058fb4cf75b182ab295295d6d6a30fc2edbda7c2daa0b5d7070eac519c568a05c7d423553b?e=1540637205&k=H4gmP8Ifw1-gU8qXDP09PQ
So these pictures are basically bullshit?
I cant believe there are so many false informations around the internet
could this "leg armor" is came from qing dynasty source?
They are not "false" as in deliberately deceiving/misleading the readers, however the pictures you linked are referencing another, more outdated book that contains (IMO) inaccurate information.
DeleteI can't see the third picture, by the way.
third picture is japanese one that cleary take inspiration from first picture
DeleteI believe there a mail stocking was thing in chinese history though?
Not to my knowledge, although I would gladly be proven wrong.
Deletehttp://m.madefuns.com/culture/857.html
DeleteI lost link of last picture
I believe either it was about guan yu or water margin
Those are mail leg armours, but I don't think they extend to cover the feet.
DeleteSo mail vambraces and greaves were thing?
DeleteIn the above picture, that guy may be wearing a long sleeved mail under his shirt (instead of mail vambrace).
DeleteYou suggest possibility of wearing mail under lamellar or brigandine was a thing in china?
DeleteYes, I mean why not?
DeleteNo doubt that is plausible idea
DeleteHowever do we have any evidence or small hint to support that idea?
I saw tang dynasty picture that some religious demon figure with mail armor under typical so call "bright armor"
But that is only evidence i have
Here's a Ming period statue with mail armour underneath other armour.
Deletehttps://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1wm8i00PNSA/W06w7uLKv4I/AAAAAAAAE0E/MplxuyRhIWAgsLPnxPr8r3t8U2LvewlkACLcBGAs/s1600/nanjing_ming_statue.jpg
@s ss
DeleteThat said, I have to admit that the evidence for the practice of wearing mail underneath clothing/lamellar/brigandine is very scarce. My interpretation on the painted scroll could be wrong as well.
That is very sad
DeleteCommonly believed china and near country doesnt wear mail under neath other solid armor and they say it is very european thing
I was little bit excited this is not might be the case but welp
A few evidences are still better than nothing, I suppose.
DeleteThat's not just a European thing though, India, Middle East, Central Asia and Russia also used mail under other armours.
http://m.madefuns.com/culture/857.html
DeleteIn clearer images, the “mail stockings” are just leg tattoos
@Tanzi Khan
DeleteYes, I already knew about that after high-res images of the painting surfaced. But thanks for pointing that out here.
How do you wear this?
ReplyDeleteespecially skirt
You wear it like a T-shirt (wear from the head). I believe the armour is basically one piece (no separate skirt).
Delete1.But why middle is opened then?
DeleteJudging by the picture i thought it would be worn same manner as ming brigandine
2. Then this picture is wrong?
https://chinesecostumes.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/elite-guard.jpg
https://chinesecostumes.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/elite-guard.jpg
@SSD
DeleteThe description of Mail armour in Wu Bei Zhi seems to be copied from Bing Lu, which describes a T-shirt like armour. However the illustration in Wu Bei Zhi is different from Bing Lu. Given that Bing Lu is the earlier source, I am inclined to go by the written description.
That being said, there should be more than one type of mail armour in China though.
2) I have yet to see real photo of that mail skirt and "foot mail (whatever that means)" so this is most likely speculative reconstruction. Also, all-metal items like mail armour is notoriously difficult to date, so I cannot rule out that the mail shirt might be from Qing period.
I also doubt anyone from Ming period wanted to wear a mail shirt over that expensive-looking robe.
Are my eyes playing tricks on me? As the 1st drawing looks more like a dragon-scale pattern to me..?
ReplyDeleteNo, it's just drawn badly.
DeletePardon, but what do you mean by mail-and-plate armor? I am supposing that it is similar to the Middle East's armor, right?
ReplyDeleteSomewhat. The terms used in Joseon record is 鏡幡甲, which is a type of mail-and-plate used in Korea.
Delete