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| Grand Cathay is coming! |
Happy Chinese new year！
With the confirmation that Grand Cathay will be one of the starting factions of Total War: Warhammer III, as well as being introduced to the tabletop for the first time, I've decided to write something to celebrate/hype up the announcement. The article is on my Patreon, but it is public and accessible to everyone. Go read it here!
There is a Redditor who drew fantastic Cathay roster fan arts long before the announcement of Total Warhammer 3. Here are compilations:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/lbzhyr/total_war_warhammer_3_grand_cathay_fan_concept/
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/lbzskn/total_war_warhammer_3_grand_cathay_fan_concept/
What's your impressions on them?
He also listed your blog as a source several times.
DeleteCobol Yu is it? Yes, I've seen his fantastic works. He has clearly done a lot of research, although as fan artist he is somewhat bogged down by existing (badly written) pieces of lore done by Games Workshop in the past, so there are still things like shugengan and crowmen.
DeleteUgh, don't remind of official WHF lores on the East. Is it really hard for them to realize that China/Korea/Japan are distinct cultures and places?
DeleteAlthough still better than Nippon with its Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Orange Simca, Vim-to...
DeleteToyota and Nissan? My god, for something to be so silly, it HAS to be intentional.
DeleteIt came from the 80s, when the Warhammer franchise was created, so it was certainly intentional. Early Warhammer was more into black humor and popular culture references compared to the modern editions.
DeleteAccording to Graeme Davis, one of original creators of Warhammer:
Delete"The East was never officially opened up by GW. They stuck a toe in the water – after Kagemusha, the Shogun miniseries and the 80s fashion for Japanese characters on T-shirts, there was a lot of interest in feudal Japan among 80s geeks. There was the short-lived Oriental Heroes range, and the Perrys did a few ninja minis, but almost nothing in the way of text. I proposed an Oriental Heroes vs. hobgoblins battle box (working title: Bakemono’s Revenge) but the battle boxes were dropped after McDeath. What Mark found is the mortal remains of the Tetsubo project. Dave Morris and Oliver Johnson, authors of the “Way of the Tiger” gamebooks, were commissioned to create a Nippon supplement for WFRP1. I was one of the people who looked over the original "manuscripts" when they turned it in, and everyone agreed it didn’t nail the WFRP tone. It was more like an adaptation of FGU’s Bushido to use WFRP1 rules. It languished in a “to be developed” pile for a long time, but nothing happened with it. As time went on it was getting harder and harder to get a green light for a new Enemy Within adventure, let alone opening up a whole new region. Then the fashion for Japanese stuff faded and that was that."
O wow, never thought 春秋戰國 would have seen my work! You are absolutely correct in that alot of my concepts were very much bogged down by old GW lore that was heavily Japanese flavored. I tried to remedy some of that by for example, giving the Shugengan a Daoist priest look, or basing the crowmen on Lei Zhenzi instead of the very obvious Japanese Tengu that the writer probably had in mind.
DeleteJust want to say your blog is one of the best resources out there for learning more about Chinese military and debunking some myths out there (I especially love your armor comparison post and the rant about Osprey's illustrations lol). This is my first go to place when researching ideas for cool units and weapons to utilize in my work. An absolute treasure trove of old manual scripts illustrations and description on how they are used and deployed. Thanks for the amazing work!
@Cobol Yu
DeleteNice to have you here! You really did an awesome job on making the Cathay faction feels "right", and I am eagerly waiting more updates of your Jade-blooded vampires!
Well, the good news is that GW and CA appear to be willing to completely reimagine the faction and their previously established lore, as seen with the new Streltsi armed with hybrid gunaxes (instead of historical bardiche-and-musket they had in RPG), ice bear, ice sabertooth, and Little Grom on magical ice sled.
DeleteThe bad news is that they might be going a bit overboard with themes, like the Space Wolves with wolves. So far, I like most of them (except Little Grom, which is somewhat silly), but...
@John Able
DeleteThat sounds...worrying.
I don't like any of the revealed Kislev unit so far, and Tsar Guard and Little Grom in particular.
Anyway, here's my brief opinions on the abovementioned article:
ReplyDelete1. The strategist: I don't know. While not without historical precedence, I think it clashes with 'Dynasty kitchen sink' and 'Overplay the spiritual and mysticism aspect'.
2. Wuxia: No problem in principle, but I think Wuxia has been overused and became stereotyped to the point where it became a trite cliché in the depiction of China or China-inspired fictional culture, perhaps even racist. I personally think Wuxia without the cliche, the ones that are more grounded in historical xia and assassins might be better here.
3. Monkey king: Unfortunately this guy is canon (is literally called Monkey King in the lore), and a Chaos-worshipping, Skaven-loving villain at that.
4. Shaolin: Agreed. Also, see my above opinion about Wuxia.
@John Able
DeleteWhile strategist was only an official military position in a handful of periods (historically they were more like military staffs), they have a rather large persense in classical Chinese novels, which makes them a good fit to fictional, warfare-focused setting. (Many classical Chinese novels deal with fictionalised/romanised period of upheveal and/or dynastic change, obviously with a lot of warfare). The impression that a strategist gives (cunning, calculating, rational, intelligence that borders mind-reading) is also not at all similar to mysterious sifu.
For Wuxia, considering that this genre occupies such a large part of Chinese language fictional works, it'd be difficult to not include or at least reference it in some form. IMO tropes are not bad if handled carefully.
(BTW, our perception of Wuxia genre may be quite different due to different background and exposure to the genre)
I don't particularly mind having a Monkey King in Warhammer-verse, so long he isn't working for the Cathay Empire. Likewise for "monkey warriors" mentioned in the lore. I have no love for the Chaos-worshipping Skaven-loving part though.
2377 - The Monkey King seizes power in Cathay. He installs Warlord Kishkik of Clan Eshin as an advisor, and begins trade with the Skaven Under-Empire.
DeleteAlso, I made a mistake. Apparently Monkey King himself is not a Chaos worshipper. One of his servant was, but Monkey King exiled him from Cathay.
The said servant, also one of few canonical Cathayan character:
https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dien_Ch%27ing
Well, maybe. I don't know. Obscure Warhammer lores can get confusing and often unavailable, so don't trust me too much.
DeleteI don't want oriental fantasy faction
ReplyDeleteI want cathay be as grounded as empire
My idea of cathay is a kin to qing or ming dynasty
I think Song or Tang dynasty is overrepresented in fantasy genre
Don't get your hopes up.
DeleteI will give GW and CA a thumb up if they can design Cathay to be at least aesthetically and thematically consistent and without jarring out of place stuffs. That's how low my expectation is.
So sad Im tired of koei-esque fancy handsome guy with ridiculous armors
DeleteI don't think there will be KOEI pretty boys in Warhammer, but I do expect ridiculous armours that make KOEI design looks downright sensible..
DeleteI know it's not official (although from what I know it either got some kind of blessing from authors of original rules or one of them took participation in creating it), but Border City Burning fan supplement for Mordheim (Warhammer Fantasy small-scale tabletop game - I think you know about it) ticked all the "dubious" boxes you listed, including warband of magic-wielding Shaolin monks, hot-as-plasma mystical swords, terracota golems and overabundance of ridable fantasy monsters. I have a feeling CA will go the same road.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of tabletop, how would you rate historical accuracy of these Northstar Ming army models - https://www.northstarfigures.com/images/4/img8584.jpg? I have a feeling they'd scale pretty terribly.
I hope CA's experience in making 3K can at least steer them back somewhat, but even I find that hope questionable.
DeleteNorthstar Ming models are...bad. Mail armour existed during Ming period, but we know next to nothing about how it was worn by Ming soldiers.
I also have a feeling there's something wrong with the officer's sword, it looks like a katana.
Delete@Dmitry
DeleteGenerally I simply ignore blade shape at that scale, since it is hard to do something that small with any accuracy. There are Chinese swords that look like katana too so it may get a pass.
Have you seen the reveal trailer for Cathay? Your thoughts?
ReplyDeleteYes. I will write an impression post in my Patreon.
DeleteIm very disappointed.
ReplyDeleteI mean dragon emperor is already cheesy enough but moon empress and their anime children?
what are they thinking?