tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post82676131579787450..comments2024-03-12T09:31:26.714-07:00Comments on Great Ming Military: Ming, Qing and Japanese armour components: A brief introduction and analysis春秋戰國http://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comBlogger144125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-49397995519217118912024-02-15T10:16:44.214-08:002024-02-15T10:16:44.214-08:00Both, they can be worn alone or over stockings. Th...Both, they can be worn alone or over stockings. They are made of cloth.<br />春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-54907407873556916572024-02-08T07:24:30.878-08:002024-02-08T07:24:30.878-08:00My apology, I can't look up stuffs for the nex...My apology, I can't look up stuffs for the next few days for obvious reason, will get back to you later.春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-19201746527488138922024-02-07T14:32:22.962-08:002024-02-07T14:32:22.962-08:00Regarding the puttees worn by southern troops, wou...Regarding the puttees worn by southern troops, would they have been worn on their own or over socks/stockings. Also, what material would they have been made of? 梅县anonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02104933936194598802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-3121136681233185332023-07-16T19:39:53.340-07:002023-07-16T19:39:53.340-07:00No idea on Samurai plate.
Folks on Cathay Armoury...No idea on Samurai plate. <br />Folks on Cathay Armoury say average thickness of Qing brigandine plates is ~0.7mm.春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-8111869493026080292023-07-15T22:34:39.923-07:002023-07-15T22:34:39.923-07:00Do you have any idea of how thick the armours woul...Do you have any idea of how thick the armours would be? For either the samurai's plate or the brigandines?wakawakwakahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15264808613704582683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-26096235941934457892023-05-01T21:07:07.564-07:002023-05-01T21:07:07.564-07:00Welcome and thanks for supporting me!
Yes, Later ...Welcome and thanks for supporting me!<br /><br />Yes, Later Jin/Early Qing armours look pretty similar, in fact nearly identical, to late Ming armours. Ming Dynasty ruled the region we now call Manchuria, where the Nurhaci rebellion originated. Actual control waxed and waned over time, and at times it was only "in name only", but obviously Ming would still strongly influence them.春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-74877778072841647002023-05-01T04:35:06.658-07:002023-05-01T04:35:06.658-07:00Hi, love your blog and now the patreon!
One thing...Hi, love your blog and now the patreon! <br />One thing that confuses me doing some research is, does the Qing armor essentially look like the Ming armor during late ming period (When they are fighting each other), ie already influenced by Ming culture?<br /><br />I'm very very new to 1600's warfare but it's been interesting so far :-)VNRPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07101293492696331487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-63150739322742115092022-03-16T18:53:09.005-07:002022-03-16T18:53:09.005-07:00Not any time soon unfortunately. I am pretty occup...Not any time soon unfortunately. I am pretty occupied at the moment.春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-66135835481275809962022-03-16T12:31:32.492-07:002022-03-16T12:31:32.492-07:00Would you be inclined to do a comparison for Korea...Would you be inclined to do a comparison for Korean and Vietnamnese armor with enough sources supplied?Tobihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14889806094796731631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-7472851583742240212021-12-23T14:33:52.018-08:002021-12-23T14:33:52.018-08:00Did not realize you updated the article!Did not realize you updated the article!Tobihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14889806094796731631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-23459041443671133892021-01-25T00:00:03.150-08:002021-01-25T00:00:03.150-08:00Interesting.
I don't think they are called 鞋...Interesting. <br /><br />I don't think they are called 鞋底甲 historically though?春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-24425760287449284642021-01-24T09:36:54.738-08:002021-01-24T09:36:54.738-08:00Scott Rodell had introduced some antique Qing dyna...Scott Rodell had introduced some antique Qing dynasty military boots with metal sole(鞋底甲), very interesting.<br />https://youtu.be/Su2GIVzxakc基妖剋星https://www.blogger.com/profile/12281839533492489910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-31724711462960425882020-08-12T06:29:52.329-07:002020-08-12T06:29:52.329-07:00No? The guards were probably in parade gear, but t...No? The guards were probably in parade gear, but they were still in the presence of the Emperor, with all the potential risks that entail. Also, there are various surviving records of manufacturing/storing of metal armours (including the more ornate ones) used by Imperial guards, but this so-called "painted-on armour" never existed in Ming records as far as I am aware.<br /><br />It seems even more illogical to me to NOT wear actual armour during a parade. Various cultures, both East and West, both past and present, parade in actual armour all the time.春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-82657502999881623412020-08-12T00:30:04.536-07:002020-08-12T00:30:04.536-07:00is it possible that the armor in chujing rubi tu a...is it possible that the armor in chujing rubi tu are made by fabrics with armor patterns printed on it? it seems illogical to wear actual armor and walk a long distanceTanzi Khanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07334836818165169230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-32109835736119889622020-07-06T19:04:48.422-07:002020-07-06T19:04:48.422-07:00@Blogger01
There are some evidence that suggest t...@Blogger01<br /><br />There are some evidence that suggest the bullet resistant qualities of thickly layered cotton and paper, as well as one (homemade) test that I am aware of.春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-78146340260308636992020-07-06T05:41:04.468-07:002020-07-06T05:41:04.468-07:00@Blogger01
@Tobi
So far I've yet to find any ...@Blogger01<br />@Tobi<br /><br />So far I've yet to find any evidence of Chinese armoured boots lined with mail. "jazerant" vambraces were quite common during Qing period though.春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-61074810611272277472020-07-06T04:48:42.828-07:002020-07-06T04:48:42.828-07:00I know of the plates in the boots but not boots wi...I know of the plates in the boots but not boots with mail where is that example coming from?Tobihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14889806094796731631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-75243595063937730092020-07-06T03:11:18.216-07:002020-07-06T03:11:18.216-07:00Good day and welcome to my blog.
The "brigan...Good day and welcome to my blog.<br /><br />The "brigandine boots" is extrapolated from a pair of surviving armoured boots currently in the possession of The National Museum of Mongolia. The boots are closer to Chinese style than Mongol style, and given the time period, they were likely issued to a Mongolian soldier serving in the Qing military.<br /><br />Still, since they are the only surviving evidence, we don't know how common armoured boots were in the past. I put a "some boots may be armoured" note in the Qing brigandine analysis picture to reflect this.春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-77141276244009259682020-07-06T02:19:42.973-07:002020-07-06T02:19:42.973-07:00Paper armors(紙甲) were able to stop bullets accordi...Paper armors(紙甲) were able to stop bullets according to Ming dynasty records "武備要略". Ming and Qing dynasties did develop some types of bullet-rsistent armors but they're usually multi-layers combined with different materials including metals, leathers, cottons and papers. During Battle of Sarhu, the armors wore by Manchus were able to resist bullets shot from both Ming and Choseon musketeers. 基妖剋星https://www.blogger.com/profile/12281839533492489910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-85616826168598087452020-07-06T01:51:26.914-07:002020-07-06T01:51:26.914-07:00According to some researches I've found, Ming-...According to some researches I've found, Ming-Qing styles traditional Chinese military boots(軍靴、軍用靿鞋) sometime were armored with metal plates or chainmail but they're installed inside(or between) the fabric of boots(鐵甲靴、鐵網靴) like usual brigandine armors, so it's not necessarily unarmored, just not visible from outside.<br />https://www.zhihu.com/question/339491553<br />Also as I understand, the regular Chinese foot soldiers usually just wear traditional Chinese linen-cotton flat shoes(中式布鞋) or straw shoes(草鞋)similar to Japanese, only officers, cavalries and elite soldiers can wear boots, there were strict regulations about what kinds of shoes they should wear. <br /><br />Outstanding article btw!<br />基妖剋星https://www.blogger.com/profile/12281839533492489910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-56184727243035758102020-03-09T20:59:54.367-07:002020-03-09T20:59:54.367-07:00"Indeed true, and the weight distribution wil..."Indeed true, and the weight distribution will most likely be affected."<br /><br />Some middle Eastern mail and most East Asian armor are fastened at the front/back/side that means their weight distribution are different to European mail armor and more similar to 14th-15th century Coat of Plates/Brigandine.<br /><br /><br />"Could the gap be a result of cost-saving and cutting corners? Sengoku warfare evolved and increased in intensity quite a lot over the century, so maybe the gap was the result of trying to churn out more armours in shorter period of time?"<br /><br />That is what I thought too, the Japanese concentrate on thickening the cuirass and helmet, while reducing as much weight as possible on the rest. I don't think the drive for overall heavier armor exist in China or Japan, as it does in Europe. I remember seeing a 17th century 3/4 Cuirassier armor with a weight of 42 kg.<br /><br />With the exception of the more solid torso part of the Do and the Kote, the rest of the Japanese armor of late 16th century are more open, lighter and sometimes plain inferior or less sophisticated in construction.<br /><br />I don't know precisely when the transition start from 15th/early 16th century style to gunpowder armor late 16th century. The earlier armor would be more ideal for a battlefield with minimal gunpowder and more arrows/spear as it is more enclosed.<br /><br />Here are the component of earlier armor that you can compare to the Japanese armor picture you have.<br /><br />https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/65122<br /><br />This is how a 1400 Samurai look like.<br /><br />https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/65122<br /><br />The early 16th century Samurai probably wear the same limb armor, but with better torso armor in the form of laminar and early Okegawa Do.<br />https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMv71FDUEAYLPtp.jpg<br /><br /><br />He wear Hodo Haidate that enclose the back of the leg as well.<br />https://i.imgur.com/Z4ekaI8.jpg<br /><br />The Kote is old design, so it goes under the Do. The arm defense are solid or hinged plates with gaps covered with mail or plate. This is a 1400-1450 Kote with European style mail covering the gaps.<br />https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jEX0YXVxDeU/XcntCmysdbI/AAAAAAAABnQ/EywBKyeHpycUYTEPGXl56j7DXT56UCmdwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/f0b0a55c26f6a76c16c330a770c35858.jpg<br /><br />The one in the painting had mail on the part under the Do and it also had small plates to cover to supplement the mail.<br /><br />A real example from Edo Period of old style Kote with mail under the Do and in the armpit:<br />https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ec/4c/11/ec4c1136f03ab8ce18a066a3258250e0.jpg<br /><br /><br />The greave is more solid with rigid knee guard and it also cover the front and back of the shin.<br />https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEn6gJFUwAA8t96?format=jpg&name=large<br /><br /><br />As far as I know that is the difference, much of it is based on simple observation and as far as I know probably wouldn't be in a book.<br /><br />However, while late 16th century "standard" Japanese armor is more open, they did not forget how to create more enclosing armor and the additional armor had a lot more variety than 15th-early 16th century armor.<br /><br />So an ideal late 16th century with all additional armor would still be better.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12712475354569244974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-61171421175519757242020-03-09T00:39:20.122-07:002020-03-09T00:39:20.122-07:00@Joshua
Now that I've finally getting my lates...@Joshua<br />Now that I've finally getting my latest blog post cleared, I can reply to the comment (I hope I don't forget to reply to something...)<br /><br />"European mail are rarely fastened at the front/back/side".<br />Indeed true, and the weight distribution will most likely be affected. <br /><br />Chest straps and Varangian bras were nice things to have, but not absolutely crucial. The practice wasn't universal in both Byzantine Empire and China (and elsewhere) either.<br /><br /><br />I must admit I only have some basic knowledge with the development of Japanese armour/weapon, so this is just a blind guess:<br /><br />Could the gap be a result of cost-saving and cutting corners? Sengoku warfare evolved and increased in intensity quite a lot over the century, so maybe the gap was the result of trying to churn out more armours in shorter period of time?春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-32291211271371809152020-02-29T03:22:41.507-08:002020-02-29T03:22:41.507-08:00"Yes, I mean something like Varangian bra, or..."Yes, I mean something like Varangian bra, or at least the strap used to hold mirror plate in place. Flexible armour like mail will sag when you move around so it's better to secure it."<br /><br />Yes, mail and other flexible armor will sag, but European mail are rarely fastened at the front/back/side.<br /><br />Such mail armor is like a T-shirt that cannot stretch, there is no way it could rest on the body, otherwise it will not pass the shoulder when worn.<br /><br />Mail and other flexibe armor made in the style of Do-maru/Haramaki/or fastened at the sides is different story, in my opinion, because with such fastening method you force it to conform to body shape.<br /><br /><br />"Here's one from the 16th century with gap."<br /><br />That's why I specifiy 15th-early 16th century.<br />That armor is quite strange and should be antiquated in the 16th century. It does not have the silhouette of thinner waist so it follow the shape 13th century armor, while the gaps are not present in earlier armor of this type, so maybe it is an imitation combined with late 16th century preference for gap.<br /><br />From my discussion with Gunsen, I think we could get a pattern of 15th century. <br /><br />This is old armor before the rigid self supporting 15th century lamellar. As you can see the side sag on its own.<br /><br />https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e0/fe/90/e0fe90b594143f7d25dc89962c05be09.jpg <br /><br />This is 15th century lamellar. The waist part is thinner, so it had the benefit of rigid cuirass as well.<br /><br />https://webarchives.tnm.jp/imgsearch/show/E0017343<br /><br /><br />These two are from 1500-1570. The form remain the same, but replaced with laminar and also had the lacing reduced.<br /><br />https://netz-saitama.xsrv.jp/gururi/images/201905_01/p07.jpg<br /><br />https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPRiHTqUYAA8vkh.jpg<br /><br /><br />This is late 16th century armor shape, in this case, the armor is lamellar (or false lamellar). As you can see, it has gaps in the midriff, while previous armor did not.<br /><br />https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d4/b4/0d/d4b40dfdb346ce84abfc1dc890400f08.jpg<br /><br /><br />Now I don't know if such development is standard or not. For example this is a 15th century untailored armor (or maybe it is tailored for a person with wide torso) with no gap.<br /><br />https://image.tnm.jp/image/1024/C0042556.jpg<br /><br />while this one is extremely narrow at the waist.<br /><br />https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3e/eb/3b/3eeb3b82c1b4f6fa2cf7dc3e2dc435b7.jpg<br /><br />The thing is that such gap are purposefully designed, while previous armor didn't had those gaps. One example of that I suspect is purposefully separated is probably the old Kote design being separated into the new Kote and Manchira. <br /><br /><br />Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12712475354569244974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-34787754440168572922020-02-28T19:38:24.492-08:002020-02-28T19:38:24.492-08:00@Joshua
Yes, I mean something like Varangian bra, ...@Joshua<br />Yes, I mean something like Varangian bra, or at least the strap used to hold mirror plate in place. Flexible armour like mail will sag when you move around so it's better to secure it.<br /><br /><br />Unfortunately, even I do not have the complete version of the source (I only acquired screenshots of the relevant part).<br /><br />"So far all 15th-early 16th century armor I see is like this."<br /><br />Here's one from the 16th century with gap.<br />https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/27582<br /><br />I don't understand the reasoning for the gap either.<br /><br /><br />"Didn't most metal armor in the world had metal to metal contact somewhere in their construction?"<br /><br />Yes, it is inevitable. But still better to reduce it as much as possible.春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-36288256851378878582020-02-28T04:26:55.484-08:002020-02-28T04:26:55.484-08:00· Ming/Qing brigandines were seldom fastened with ...· Ming/Qing brigandines were seldom fastened with chest straps like earlier lamellar though.<br /><br />Do you mean a chest sash like the Varangian bra?<br />Didn't a flexible armor wrap itself around the body when fastened at the front?<br /><br />https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/22011<br /><br /><br />· There are late Ming written records mentioning these add-ons in the context of brigandine parts.<br /><br />Thank you. Do you know where I can read them?<br /><br /><br />· While it's true that you can use auxiliary pieces to cover the gap, it still constitutes a weakness that you have to take extra step to mitigate.<br /><br />That's the thing I did not understand about Japanese armor. <br />This is a Do from around the period of the depicted Ming soldier.<br /><br />https://collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-12242.html<br /><br />The Kusazuri overlap the torso armor leaving no gap. So far all 15th-early 16th century armor I see is like this.<br /><br /><br />· The problem with backing (or lack thereoff) is more about metal on metal contact than metal on clothing contact.<br /><br />Didn't most metal armor in the world had metal to metal contact somewhere in their construction?<br /><br />European, Indian, Chinese armor are composed of metal contacting other metals.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12712475354569244974noreply@blogger.com