tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post6220190786165980527..comments2024-03-27T07:41:27.083-07:00Comments on Great Ming Military: Matchlock firearms of the Ming Dynasty春秋戰國http://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-64064393975124137362020-08-29T20:09:05.501-07:002020-08-29T20:09:05.501-07:00In any case, I was trying to find if anyone ever t...In any case, I was trying to find if anyone ever tried rifling the matchlocks. So far, only the Afghani (via the rifled Jezails) and the Koreans (via replacing the caplock mechanism of imported rifled muskets with matchlock) seem to have done so.John Ablehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17215889775509896141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-58474448930995813632020-08-29T20:02:57.557-07:002020-08-29T20:02:57.557-07:00I'll try to find it, but I never saved the ima...I'll try to find it, but I never saved the image or link, sorry. And now that I think of it, the term 'rifle' may have been used to describe 'generic long guns' as a whole, as it is often done. Or the description may have been just plainly lying.John Ablehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17215889775509896141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-17868803030148404132020-08-29T08:55:28.661-07:002020-08-29T08:55:28.661-07:00@John Able
First time I've heard of such thing...@John Able<br />First time I've heard of such thing (Qing is not really my focus), can you show me the pic? Very interesting if Qing really did reverse engineer rifled musket.<br />春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-39387196990855367122020-08-29T05:56:54.145-07:002020-08-29T05:56:54.145-07:00I am asking because I saw a couple of picture desc...I am asking because I saw a couple of picture described as a Qing-era rifled muskets, but they looked like a traditional matchlock rather than any Western imports or licensed products.John Ablehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17215889775509896141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-69369151670210805342020-08-25T15:57:42.037-07:002020-08-25T15:57:42.037-07:00Rifled musket? I am certain Ming didn't make t...Rifled musket? I am certain Ming didn't make them, and Qing seems to transition directly from old matchlock to modern rifle (in the few armies it tried to modernize).春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-8775997040204649202020-08-25T08:03:36.458-07:002020-08-25T08:03:36.458-07:00Speaking of firearm, are there any surviving rifle...Speaking of firearm, are there any surviving rifled muskets made by either Ming or (more likely) Qing? Or a record of either of them testing it out? John Ablehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17215889775509896141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-53103349929650724072020-08-12T18:47:10.922-07:002020-08-12T18:47:10.922-07:00Thanks for the link.
Yes, Shen Qi Pu was publish...Thanks for the link. <br /><br />Yes, Shen Qi Pu was published in 1598.<br />春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-38756374794559683142020-08-12T15:51:46.833-07:002020-08-12T15:51:46.833-07:00"Zhao Shi Zhen considered European matchlock ..."Zhao Shi Zhen considered European matchlock to be light, mobile, reliable, and shoot farther than Japanese matchlock, but less powerful than both Japanese matchlock and Lu Mi Chong. However, it is possible that Zhao Shi Zhen based his opinion on a fowling piece not intended for military use."<br /> Zhao shi zhen is right to tell them apart, the gun as depicted is definitely not portuguese. Rainer Daehnhardt presides the sociedade Portuguesa de armas antigas since 1972 a world reference for Portuguese empire studies, here he tells one big difference between Portuguese and other european firearms the spanish in particular, watch from 9:48 to 11:45<br /><br />https://youtu.be/CQro0kkievs<br /><br />For the Portuguese firearms made in goa, watch 12:18 to 12:46. Others made in goa from 9:12 to 9:45<br /><br />After all this. I may ask when was Shen Qi Pu/神器譜 was first published? 1598? By that era luzon was already a spanish colony trading with a lot of fujianese chinese sailors and doing diplomacy with toyotomi hideyoshihenriquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207388042318856546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-63029713227029868962020-04-21T05:30:05.244-07:002020-04-21T05:30:05.244-07:00@John Able
Some do, but bipod was not the definin...@John Able<br /><br />Some do, but bipod was not the defining feature of Vietnamese matchlock (it was more common on Tibetan and Afghan matchlocks, although some late Ming matchlocks alread had it).春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-86700875348208268592020-04-21T01:31:51.910-07:002020-04-21T01:31:51.910-07:00I am assuming that the Jiao Chong has an integrate...I am assuming that the Jiao Chong has an integrated bipod, from the looks of it?John Ablehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17215889775509896141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-29706354999106882922019-09-29T12:36:25.346-07:002019-09-29T12:36:25.346-07:00Also note that the Malay word "Istinggar"...Also note that the Malay word "Istinggar" itself is a loanword of Portuguese "espingarda".<br /><br />春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-30196711512232787232019-09-29T12:27:57.270-07:002019-09-29T12:27:57.270-07:00It's not. Da Xi Yang Chong came from the WEST ...It's not. Da Xi Yang Chong came from the WEST of Indian Ocean, specifically Europe, not Indian Ocean itself.<br /><br />Xiao Xi Yang Chong could come from Goa or other places in Southeast Asia with similar trigger mechanism (such as Istinggar Melayu or Vietnamese matchlock), but the design ultimately orginated from Portuguese Goa. Note that Portuguese were also part of the Wokou.<br /><br />Goa and Malacca etc may very well had good gunsmiths and matchlock guns well before the arrival of the Portuguese, but it's unclear what kind of trigger design they used.春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-71756039605946049582019-09-29T11:40:41.008-07:002019-09-29T11:40:41.008-07:00so it might be indian ocean /south asian origin af...so it might be indian ocean /south asian origin after all, the "tanegashima gun type/Xiao Xi Yang Chong" and would have arrived in china and japan before the Portuguese contact through the wokou/chinese presence in southeast asia, whose main occupation was trade and not looting...because...<br /><br />The quote comes from a letter that Albuquerque dispatched to King Manuel I of Portugal (d. 1521) while in Goa, on the southwest coast of India, in the year 1513. Albuquerque states:<br /><br />"I also send your highness a Goan master gunsmith; they make guns as good as the Bohemians and also equipped with screwed in breech plugs. There he will work for you. I am sending you some samples of their work with Pero Masquarenhas."<br /><br />Albuquerque further reports that they/local indians had become “our masters in artillery and the making of cannons and guns, which they make of iron here in Goa and are better than the German ones.”<br /> <br />http://i.imgur.com/eLQrLY0.jpg<br /> <br /> Goan gunsmiths were sent from India to portugal and to work in the arsenal of lisbon. Babur's invasion employed ottoman experts and tactics, following the decisive Ottoman victory over the Safavid Empire at the 1514 Battle of Chaldiran (one year after albuquerque's letter), Babur incorporated artillery and Ottoman artillery tactics into his military such as the indo-persian/toradar matchlock, Ustad Ali Quli and Mustafa Rumi.<br /> WELL, According to a Burmese source from the late 15th century, King Meng Khoum II would not dare attack the besieged town of Prome due to the defenders' use of cannon and small arms that were described as muskets. Why does it matter? Portuguese conquest of Goa - 1510, conquest of malacca - 1511, Minkhaung II dies in 1501<br /> <br /> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Istinggar_Melayu.jpg/220px-Istinggar_Melayu.jpg<br /><br /> The trigger mechanism of an Istinggar, a classical Malay gun as displayed in Muzium Warisan Melayu (Malay Heritage Museum), Serdang, Selangor. Upon the Fall of Malacca in 1511, it was recorded by Tomé Pires that the Portuguese conquistadors managed to seized 3000 bronze and iron cannons and thousands of Istinggar guns from the capital.... henriquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207388042318856546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-24267173207424511782019-09-29T07:52:35.127-07:002019-09-29T07:52:35.127-07:00"Da Xi Yang" in Ming context, means anyt..."Da Xi Yang" in Ming context, means anything coming from the west of Indian Ocean (which was known as Xiao Xi Yang/Lesser Western Ocean). <br /><br />So "Da Xi Yang Chong" specifically refers to the European gun, while "Xiao Xi Yang Chong" refers to "Indian (i.e. Portuguese Goa)" gun.<br /><br />Nothing to do with Taixi.<br /><br />I should've translate it as "Greater" and "Lesser" Xi Yang instead. Will correct my translation.春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-47676909893431336912019-09-29T07:37:51.396-07:002019-09-29T07:37:51.396-07:00" Xi Yang Chong (西洋銃, lit. 'Western arque..." Xi Yang Chong (西洋銃, lit. 'Western arquebus') or Da Xi Yang Chong (大西洋銃, lit. 'Big Western arquebus') "<br /><br />"Xi Yang Chong is the Chinese name for European matchlock"<br /><br />Does the historical source really say European? Or You better decided to translate west as European? .. because the west for old china it was all west of them, no? Generically to refer to all regions to the west of China through the silk road and beyond, such as the Indian subcontinent (as in the novel Journey to the West ).<br />I remember the Jesuit missionaries at Ming Court emphasizing the term Great West or Far West to avoid associations with the West of Muslims and indians/Buddhist legacy, Muslims who were also part of the Ming Court.. <br /><br /><br />https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_West_(Taixi)<br /><br />泰西/大西 Vs. 西洋?henriquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207388042318856546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-50195700468311519712019-08-27T05:35:31.217-07:002019-08-27T05:35:31.217-07:00Unfortunately I can't give you a definitive an...Unfortunately I can't give you a definitive answer. I THINK yes, and vaguely remember reading about it in some obscure Ming-period source, but I can't recall and locate the source any longer. In any case it was probably quite rare if used at all.春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-74592454380114633372019-08-27T04:16:45.807-07:002019-08-27T04:16:45.807-07:00Where arquebus with fork like prong to rest the we...Where arquebus with fork like prong to rest the weapon to aim often used by central Asian ever used in Ming China? The GhostHerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10301763913750538639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-20018986194758175622018-06-11T21:54:22.558-07:002018-06-11T21:54:22.558-07:00The soure that liken the Vietnamese gun to Java gu...The soure that liken the Vietnamese gun to Java gun come from a Qing period record known as 《南越筆記》, among several others. They don't come with illustrations though. 春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-5407971138077114252018-06-11T19:22:30.194-07:002018-06-11T19:22:30.194-07:00I'm aware of Monkey guns of the Hmong people, ...I'm aware of Monkey guns of the Hmong people, my theory is both Indonesian and Hmong gun is older than European influenced guns.... But it's need more research. That's why I asked you the source of the Vietnam and Java arquebus...Raja Warastrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01984856771078337073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-53561278675399264182018-06-11T08:51:30.502-07:002018-06-11T08:51:30.502-07:00Hmmm, maybe that's the reason why Vietnamese a...Hmmm, maybe that's the reason why Vietnamese arquebus was also called Java arquebus? The Indonesian guns you linked look almost identical to Hmong “monkey gun”.<br /><br />http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20103春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-75372962378928539762018-06-11T07:57:05.641-07:002018-06-11T07:57:05.641-07:00May I ask what is the Vietnam arquebus source? The...May I ask what is the Vietnam arquebus source? The one pictured looks like Indonesian design, like this ancient Indonesian matchlock musket :<br />https://en.expertissim.com/indonesian-musket-with-matchlock-12176454<br /><br />Or this Indonesian flintlock musket:<br />https://www.faganarms.com/products/rare-indonesian-flintlock-musket-fns404<br /><br />Or this obsolete 19th flintlock musket with Jenawi swords (pedang Jenawi) :<br />https://goo.gl/images/F3CTPe<br /><br />They all shows very crude design, maybe the design originates from 15th or 16th century without Western influence?<br />Javanese flintlock blunderbuss with seemingly Western influence can be seen at:<br />http://naplescollector.com/Flintlock%20Musket.html<br />Another blunderbuss from Nias Island, Indonesia also has Western feel to it:<br />https://goo.gl/images/eAEfHS<br />https://goo.gl/images/Pz9Fs3<br /><br />Batak "Western" blunderbuss:<br />https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:COLLECTIE_TROPENMUSEUM_De_Raja_van_Dolok_met_zijn_gevolg_Simeloengoen_TMnr_10001725.jpg<br /><br />Sasak muskets... Obvious import from the West<br />https://goo.gl/images/jJXscW<br /><br />Now you may notice obvious differences between "native" and "western" design.... May I ask what is the source of Java arquebus? Maybe a readable source? I need it for research about Indonesian pre-17th century firearms, thank you.Raja Warastrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01984856771078337073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-83454234235357500552018-01-30T12:47:05.556-08:002018-01-30T12:47:05.556-08:00The longer the gun, the higher the velocity of the...The longer the gun, the higher the velocity of the bullet. It would have travelled further and with more killing power.suluhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11284350180606685898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-53652140726247491432018-01-25T01:41:29.814-08:002018-01-25T01:41:29.814-08:00Yes, I notice the comment the other day and wonder...Yes, I notice the comment the other day and wonder why it went missing.<br /><br />Surviving Vietnamese matchlocks (that I've seen) are quite similar to the Japanese ones, so the difference in quality probably lies with craftsmanship/accuracy/barrel length/calibre etc. In fact, the Jiaoqiang pictured above is quite diffent from actual Vietnamese arquebus.春秋戰國https://www.blogger.com/profile/14961602507085597255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-69869745206128157162018-01-25T00:14:42.338-08:002018-01-25T00:14:42.338-08:00I posted a comment here the other day, but I think...I posted a comment here the other day, but I think my internet at that very moment also glitched out and prevented me from sending it through. So I'd like to send another one just in case. Sorry about any possible inconvenience this may have caused.<br /><br />As was the case prior to this day, I was just curious regarding whether you could tell me as to what made the Vietnamese "Jiaozhi Arquebus" so good, with regards to the characteristics and features of the rifle including (but not limited to) caliber, bore etc. <br /><br />Thank you so much in advance for your response, and great answer by the way.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01505048640060405815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1776482547357658591.post-47292178581606693892018-01-22T03:13:05.894-08:002018-01-22T03:13:05.894-08:00Would you happen to know specifically, what made t...Would you happen to know specifically, what made the Jiaozhi Arquebus so advanced (specifically with regards to its design features, such as bore, caliber etc.)? Thank you in advance, and great article by the way.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01505048640060405815noreply@blogger.com